Brexit: the negotiation process

3 days ago (9:00 AM)
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Greg Tingey

Start a serious campaign for a second referendum, so that we can stop this insanity, before it's too late!


Why would we want a second referendum. The country have voted and common sense won.


AGREED lets move on

Greg Tingey

Voters are allowed to change their minds.
That's why we have regular elections.
In this case the obvious & deliberate lies of the Brexiters need a public correction at the ballot-box.


Voters were told in no uncertain manner this was a once only vote as in scotland if people fail to grasp that concept thats their fault nobody elses,biggest liars in the campaign was the govt with project fear ,latest figures show ther is no voter remorse in fact in a rerun the majority would be 2to 1 for brexit ,so plenty of lies being told on here but not by brexiteers ,you los


What makes you think I would vote differently the second time?


Some xenophobes are indeed beyond help, but last I checked at least 13% of the original leavers were regretting their vote.


Thats not true ,not all brexiteers are xenophobes but all of us love living in a democracy ,if you wish to be governed by unelected bureaucrats move to the eu,not gonna happen here,dont know where you got 13%from but its interesting that a very high number of remainers have also changed their mind



Just because you didn't get the result you wanted the first time round? It's called democracy. Stop behaving like a spoilt child and learn to live with it.


I agree with Greg Tingey, but perhaps to make sure, we should suggest that Brexit should be cancelled

I am sorry to have to say this, but in my view, triggering A50 will be one of the most asinine and stupid things that this Government has ever done, that is, apart from having the EU Referendum at all.

The recent White Paper stated that Parliament was always sovereign anyway - and the vast majority of EU laws that the UK subscribed to were pro-consumer, pro-ordinary worker and ensuring that big business did not overstep the mark.

Even if we leave the EU, there will still be immigration because there has been a skill shortage in the UK plus large companies will always keep costs down in any way they can. Also, most trade treaties with other countries have clauses about making it easier for their nationals to come to the UK. Nothing wrong with this in my book - but it is probably not what the average Brexiteer voted for! A latest report for the Lords states that ending free movement may not cut migration – see:

The Leavers implemented Project Lie - ordinary people were not told that their problems were not because of EU policy, but because successive UK Governments, both Labour and Tory had allowed the current economic situation to materialise, including over-priced housing that keeps many young folks, who do not have access to the Bank of Mum & Dad, away from buying their own home.

We no longer have an indigenous ship building industry to speak of, we no longer have an indigenous car industry to speak of and we no longer have a UK aircraft building industry to speak of. Most of our utilities and railways are now franchised out, in many cases to European state-owned companies, who are laughing at us. Profits from these utilities go our European friends (and elsewhere of course) who are now subsidising their taxpayers, not ours. Former Business Secretary Sir Vince Cable expressed concerns about jobs because of the government's "lack of commitment to the customs union and the single market".
Sir Vince Cable stated:
“Car components have to go backwards and forwards across frontiers and they will acquire tariffs and checks. Vauxhall is particularly exposed to this, [as] about 80% of its exports are to the European Union. If you're a hard-headed car executive looking at the competitiveness of Britain versus German plants, Britain, I'm afraid, is going to slip down the ranking in future."

George Osborne warns against leaving EU without a trade deal:

Many thousands of workers in the finance sector will move away from London, yet another own goal, because those finance workers also paid taxes and bought stuff whilst in the UK. One of Germany's most senior banking regulators has warned London that it is likely to lose its role as "the gateway to Europe" for vital financial services. Dr Andreas Dombret, executive board member for the German central bank, the Bundesbank, said that even if banking rules were "equivalent" between the UK and the rest of the European Union, that was "miles away from access to the single market".
Mr Dombret's comments were made at a private meeting of German businesses and banks organised by Boston Consulting Group in Frankfurt earlier this week.

The UK still hangs on to tax havens - nothing whatsoever to do with the EU - and money deposited in those tax havens are largely exempt from tax, thus further decreasing money going into the UK Exchequer - which in turn means more cuts on the already poor.

To survive, the UK has to sell arms to Saudi Arabia and now Theresa May wants to sell arms to President Erdogan in Turkey, who will doubtless use them against the Kurds, who valiantly supported the UK against Daesh. Theresa May now has to - of yet another unsavoury character, namely the new neo-con POTUS, in order to try to sell whatever to the US. Our position as a trading nation will be made worse, not better, as a result of leaving the EU. Of course, we look to countries outside the EU to make trade deals with but, as an example, India says that a UK free trade deal will take years. India's finance minister has said that a free trade deal with Britain will take a "long time" and that no negotiations will start until the Brexit process has been completed.
On a visit to the UK today to meet the chancellor and the foreign secretary to discuss trade, Arun Jaitley, Minister of Finance of India, said there was "great enthusiasm" for a deal.
But he made it clear that any talks would have to run "in parallel" with current Indian negotiations with the European Union (EU). The EU and India launched free trade talks in 2007 but progress has been slow.

Staying within the EU also means that around 27 countries are all trying to look collectively after each other to a great extent - leaving the EU means the UK pursues national interest only - how can this be better? When awarding the Nobel Peace Prize to the EU, the Norwegian Nobel Committee said its decision was based on the stabilising role the EU has played in transforming most of Europe from a continent of war to a continent of peace. The EU’s most important achievement, according to the committee, has been "the successful struggle for peace and reconciliation and for democracy and human rights". The work of the EU represents "fraternity between nations" and amounts to a form of the "peace congresses" cited by Alfred Nobel as criteria for the Peace Prize in his 1895 will.

The EU Referendum was advisory and the vote was not large enough to justify going ahead. It is more patriotic to do what is best for the country - in particular, what is best for the JAMs (Just About Managing) and those below the JAMs who are not managing at all.


Very good summary. Thanks Lee.


Finally some common sense - it's about time that the Brexiters get over their jingoism and back slapping see the situation for what it is.Great summary Lee


I think you will find it was "Common Sense" that won the vote.

Greg Tingey

People were gulled by the deliberate lies of the Brexiters


I didn't believe any of the politicians. I made up my own mind.


You can't say that we have a dire shortage of labour and then suggest we'll be damned by the loss of a few jobs. You can't have it both ways. If you don't want the UK to lose any jobs, what do you say to the thousands of young people who have to leave their families and communities because there is no work for them there?


Also, how can you just IGNORE the democratic will of the people???


Great summary and exactly the facts that the Brexiters refuse to acknowledge. It's really alarming to me how they're willing to give away even the most basic decency (see the PM being best friends with notorious human rights violators like Erdogan and Trump) just to see this ridiculous ego trip through. This is in no one's best interests, not even the self-styled British "patriots" who keep telling themselves it's a good thing.


It's not an ego-trip - it is democracy. We cannot go round the world telling everybody else to have free and fair elections unless we are willing to respect the results of our own elections as well.


Just what I would have expected from the worse Mayor ever. Shame we don't have one that lives in the real world.


Spot on gazbag

Jan Jan

In my opinion...the only EU citizens currently living in the UK who should be entitled to stay are those who have a legitimate job and those who are married/living with and/or have a child by a British citizen. Pointless allowing thousands of out of work European citizens to continue to live in the UK....and those who do remain need a visa in ALL cases. Any child/marriage/job should be confirmed prior to issue. In addition, any immigration policy should be for the whole of the UK and not exclude London. London is packed to capacity...Khan should be concentrating his efforts on making London a better, safer place for those who already live in it before he opens his arms to more foreign workers that we apparently "need".


Totally agree


If jobs go abroad, all those unemployed immigrants will go with them. Then we'll have more housing available - and a seat on the tube.


No. People who came to the UK legally with no reason to expect it would turn back on them like this can't suddenly be turned into illegal migrants just because you don't personally approve of their life choices. That's basic rights and security in life - not something that should be taken away at the whim of every xenophobe on the internet or in Whitehall.


It's only the freedom to move to work, study or train. Government is already deporting every EU immigrant rough-sleeping or leaving prison and we're still in the EU.


OK, so you're already abusing human rights while in the EU. As a law student I'm aware. However you're very wrong to assert that it's illegal to come from one EU country to another without already having a job or a course. Wasn't that what you're lot were so mad about?


Alex, the government IS deporting people from the UK because they have no job. That is already happening. It's not me - it's what the EU told us to do because we had too many people coming over here to sleep rough and claim benefits. Do your research and you will see that this is what is going on. OK you disagree with it. I guess you think that immigration controls breach human rights. Well go to court and argue your case then. I didn't make the rule. The EU made the rule and people at the top of the EU have been on TV telling us not to let people in unless they have a job or are studying.


Citation needed.

This is in a nutshell the EU rule:
Freedom of movement allows citizens of the European Union (EU) to move to, live in, and in certain circumstances access the welfare system of the EU country to which they have moved. Freedom of movement is one of the founding principles of the EU. It has been in operation since the creation of the European Economic Community and is primarily designed to support the economies of EU countries by providing a mobile work force.

So, no, the EU didn't make any "rule" that people who are homeless must be deported. I know leavers love bending reality but this isn't about me disagreeing with you (even though I obviously do). There is no EU rule that you have to have a job or face deportation between different EU countries. You might, however, want to do your research on immigration detention in the UK and how often it violates human rights and international law, including EU law. I don't have to "go to court" for you to be able to access that information.


I think this list is too exclusive. London needs to ensure it can get the best talent from around the world and ensure the best standards worldwide and unfettered acess to service and trade markets globally. Ignoring the non "White European" areas of the world is not in Lomdon's interest.


The sooner we get on with getting OUT the better...


How exactly ?


Well said Mediaman. Lets make Britain Great again


Alternatively you can always move to Texas and work for Donald Trump, you know.


I couldn't agree more. The sooner we get OUT, the better.

Can't believe how some of these remoaners want to tell the voters and the government what to do, like a bunch of self-appointed autocrats. It's one person one vote. What makes their opinion any more important than mine?


On top of the priorities highlighted by the Mayor, I would add an agreement for the top Universities in London (UCL, KCL, LSE, Imperial) to retain the pool of European talent in research and students. Also an agreement for these Universities that would allow them to take part in European Consortiums for Research (Horizon 2020, for instance).


In the past few months I have been receiving the EU daily news. It is not clear how much of that is affected by UK input, but clearly we, the UK have contributed hugely and in many ways.
I do hope that we will retain commitment to most of the legislative improvements or exceeding them, especially the environmental ones that are contribute to the slowing of global warming and reducing the destruction of biodiversity.

London's situation will be affected in a major way if we were reduce UK standards on these things.

Louise Pepperall

NO the decision has been made so accept it. It can not come soon enough as far as I am concerned. The country including London is extremely overcrowded and British people are suffering due to the influx of terrorists, criminals and unskilled illegal immigrants.I want my country back. I want to feel I am in England not Europe. If people move here they should learn to speak English and confirm to British culture but they don't.


Beat me to it ,well said


Yes, I feel that the importance of culture and community has been destroyed by the ideology of free movement. People who come here ought to feel the need to fit in and get to know their neighbour, but sadly the EU has brought with it a sense of entitlement.


Hear Hear

Greg Tingey

Why don't you move to the USA & vote for Donaldo Trumpolini?


Because I don't want to go anywhere and it just so happens that my country is going in the direction I like. Why don't YOU go overseas to a country whose government and electorate you approve of? Clearly you're not happy with ours.


I agree with you, Louise.

Also, people who move here should respect democracy, instead of turning up and telling us what to do.


I agree. There has been no selection at all of people we could welcome and would help our skills shortage. In fact they are the very ones who are happy in their home nation state.
If my local high road in London is anything to go by there are numerous young foreign men spending all day doing nothing very much except frequenting the betting shops and chattering on their mobile phones. The road is a littered, scruffy shadow of its former self.

I object to hearing that London voted 'yes'. It didn't - 60% did but what about the rest of us?
Some of us have seen over the years how the EU tentacles have got a tighter hold on its members.

I see from the media that Project Fear is alive and well. There isn't going to be a second referendum so why don't they shut up.

Many of the rich French immigrants settled here are fleeing from the tax regimes in France and probably pay only the non-dom tax here. They just do not want to pay up their share anywhere.

We are not hearing much re the mess the rest of the EU is in either, particularly concerning youth unemployment . It's been lovely for their governments using UK as a dumping ground.

We are not hearing from food/drink producers in France, Italy, Greece and Spain who rely on the UK to be a handy market for cheeses, wines, vegetables, meats etc. and who would rather trade with us whatever our status. Some must be very worried that the EU won't allow them sell their goods to us without imposing high tariffs.


If a result of 52% leave is valid, then London's result of over 70% to remain must surely be valid too. Listening to brexiters, one would get the impression that nobody voted to remain. The fact is most of London did and almost half the country did. It's brexiters who erase disagreements and pretend there is 100% consensus to leave when there is not. All EU supporters are saying is that there isn't a clear consensus, which is demonstrable even in this sad debate.

I'm all for challenging imperfect voting results, but not selectively.

And again with the stereotyping. My main problem as an EU national has been finding a job that's qualified enough for my Master's level education, but all the media spins is unqualified laybouts who don't work. That person who served your Pret sandwich is probably a graduate.


I was pointing out that although the media like to say 'London was for Remain' as though it as unanimous, it was not - 40.1% Londoners wanted to leave the EU. It is as though Leavers do not exist in London.

UK nationals are tired of their high streets having 2/3/4 chain coffee shops and 2/3 chain eateries. I know that makes more jobs for foreign nationals but the coming of the chains has seen off the independent cafes in many cases because only the chains can pay the exorbitant rents - in fact they set the rents. As you know the value is only set by what is obtained. (They try to see each other off too or at least get in before the opposition does.)

The food/drink chains can do this because of a seemingly bottomless pit of young foreign workers who, I am sure you will agree, are exploited in that they are expected to work away for their hourly rate by doing serving, cleaning, unloading etc. on long shifts.
Such jobs are probably something suffered for a time, even by persons with university standard of education, until something better comes along.
Meanwhile the mainly foreign-owned coffee shop chains carry on opening new branches and, with one exception, do not pay proper levels of income tax.

When you move on, as you undoubtedly will as soon as possible, there will be someone else from somewhere else to take your place, to assist the coffee chains in making their huge profits. It's the same in the construction industry - scoops of foreign labour make the current level of development possible, development often beyond the reach of our own young. The free movement of labour has contributed to the rich getting richer. I bet there is no career path in your industry!
Why do you think only young, strong, attractive persons are baristas? Why do you think staff are predominantly foreign nationals? If you wanted to work part-time you would not be hired.
The higher echelons of the coffee bar chains are not daft. I have the suspicion that their recruitment offices want only young, single, foreign nationals as workers because they know staff will be short-term and will not expect salary increments, and are prepared to share substandard accommodation for a time.
I speak as an older female. Once I could have got a part time job shelf stacking in supermarkets at night, or a few hours in a shop, or a waitress in a cafe - but not now. Free movement of EU labour means that there is no need to take on people like me. Who can blame employers
when they have such a pool of young labour on tap?

I think the media spin is mainly against asylum seekers and illegal immigrants who
are not able to be openly and legally employed.


You can't be selective about those comments though. Ever since the referendum, the refrain of brexiters has been "52% voted to leave, that is enough, shut up." Yet the same people keep casting doubt on the vote in London, Scotland and Northern Ireland which voted to stay by a larger margin than the overall 52%. We're almost not allowed to say anyone voted to stay. That's a big inconsistency.

How on earth does the EU cause high streets to be composed of Starbucks (US company) and Tescos (UK company)? Again, scapegoating the wrong organization and the wrong people for something that bothers you. EU nationals are most certainly not demanding that more Starbucks be built so they can work mind-numbing minimum wage jobs in them. No one who moves to a different country sees that as a long term goal for success. And you've probably noticed that the British by and large consider themselves too precious for these undesirable jobs, so by kicking out more EU nationals you gain nothing anyway. (Not fair on construction and care workers, by the way, since those are legitimate qualifications.)

That comment about minimum wage baristas who are forced to live in "house shares" unfit for human habitation wasn't about me, by the way, although I'm very frustrated on their behalf. I work at a university and only share with my partner, so please don't make assumptions just because I hate seeing other people live in these demeaning conditions.

"Why do you think only young, strong, attractive persons are baristas? Why do you think staff are predominantly foreign nationals?"
Because those people are at the start of their career and right after moving to a different country, they're desperate enough to pay the bills that they'll take any job. That's why. And for all their trouble you go and compare these workers to garbage ("they use us as their job dumping ground").

There are real solutions to all these problems, which are hard because they involve challenging the current model of exploitative business and maybe thinking about something other than capitalism to sustain the future. It won't be solved by stereotyping and driving out foreign-born workers, sacrificing the very values that used to be attractive about the UK.

I'm definitely sympathetic to the ageism you experience, but there are anti-dicrimination policies for this that the UK clearly isn't very good at enforcing. It's not the fault of EU nationals, and if anything, it's the EU that guarantees your human rights for the time being. Not for much longer after May forces the UK out of the ECHR and scraps the Humans Rights Act. Blaming the EU for the staggering levels of inequality in this country is simply the wrong target and you'll see just how wrong it was in due time, I'm sure.

Well, I've seen the media spin be against any and all immigrants. But it's true asylum seekers are treated like they're somehow in the wrong for fleeing a war zone the west caused and wrecked their lives. Not something I would view as a good thing or want to exploit to put myself ahead of the "wrong" migrants (after all, we are all wrong migrants now!).


I agree with the first commenter Greg Tingey.
People seem to sleepwalking into a disaster, and probably will wish they had stayed in the EU when it is too late.
Mrs may tells Scotland to stay with England as we are there nearest and main trading partner, while at the same time she is taking the UK away from its nearest and main trading partner. Daft.
Pity London's Mayor is not PM we might get some sense.


Are you mad sadiq khan as pm,,if you like living in a democracy accept the vote and move on ,oo much unchecked immigration is destroying our country and ou think khan will stop that


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