Brexit: the negotiation process

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1 day ago (3:21 PM)
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Greg Tingey

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Start a serious campaign for a second referendum, so that we can stop this insanity, before it's too late!

gazbag7

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Why would we want a second referendum. The country have voted and common sense won.

johncruddas

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AGREED lets move on

Greg Tingey

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No.
Voters are allowed to change their minds.
That's why we have regular elections.
In this case the obvious & deliberate lies of the Brexiters need a public correction at the ballot-box.
PK?

johncruddas

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Voters were told in no uncertain manner this was a once only vote as in scotland if people fail to grasp that concept thats their fault nobody elses,biggest liars in the campaign was the govt with project fear ,latest figures show ther is no voter remorse in fact in a rerun the majority would be 2to 1 for brexit ,so plenty of lies being told on here but not by brexiteers ,you los

AlisonPrice

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What makes you think I would vote differently the second time?

alex-l

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Some xenophobes are indeed beyond help, but last I checked at least 13% of the original leavers were regretting their vote.

johncruddas

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Thats not true ,not all brexiteers are xenophobes but all of us love living in a democracy ,if you wish to be governed by unelected bureaucrats move to the eu,not gonna happen here,dont know where you got 13%from but its interesting that a very high number of remainers have also changed their mind

Lee_Enfield

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I agree with Greg Tingey, but perhaps to make sure, we should suggest that Brexit should be cancelled

I am sorry to have to say this, but in my view, triggering A50 will be one of the most asinine and stupid things that this Government has ever done, that is, apart from having the EU Referendum at all.

The recent White Paper stated that Parliament was always sovereign anyway - and the vast majority of EU laws that the UK subscribed to were pro-consumer, pro-ordinary worker and ensuring that big business did not overstep the mark.

Even if we leave the EU, there will still be immigration because there has been a skill shortage in the UK plus large companies will always keep costs down in any way they can. Also, most trade treaties with other countries have clauses about making it easier for their nationals to come to the UK. Nothing wrong with this in my book - but it is probably not what the average Brexiteer voted for! A latest report for the Lords states that ending free movement may not cut migration – see:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39178288

The Leavers implemented Project Lie - ordinary people were not told that their problems were not because of EU policy, but because successive UK Governments, both Labour and Tory had allowed the current economic situation to materialise, including over-priced housing that keeps many young folks, who do not have access to the Bank of Mum & Dad, away from buying their own home.

We no longer have an indigenous ship building industry to speak of, we no longer have an indigenous car industry to speak of and we no longer have a UK aircraft building industry to speak of. Most of our utilities and railways are now franchised out, in many cases to European state-owned companies, who are laughing at us. Profits from these utilities go our European friends (and elsewhere of course) who are now subsidising their taxpayers, not ours. Former Business Secretary Sir Vince Cable expressed concerns about jobs because of the government's "lack of commitment to the customs union and the single market".
Sir Vince Cable stated:
“Car components have to go backwards and forwards across frontiers and they will acquire tariffs and checks. Vauxhall is particularly exposed to this, [as] about 80% of its exports are to the European Union. If you're a hard-headed car executive looking at the competitiveness of Britain versus German plants, Britain, I'm afraid, is going to slip down the ranking in future."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39175740

George Osborne warns against leaving EU without a trade deal:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39116895

Many thousands of workers in the finance sector will move away from London, yet another own goal, because those finance workers also paid taxes and bought stuff whilst in the UK. One of Germany's most senior banking regulators has warned London that it is likely to lose its role as "the gateway to Europe" for vital financial services. Dr Andreas Dombret, executive board member for the German central bank, the Bundesbank, said that even if banking rules were "equivalent" between the UK and the rest of the European Union, that was "miles away from access to the single market".
Mr Dombret's comments were made at a private meeting of German businesses and banks organised by Boston Consulting Group in Frankfurt earlier this week.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38925440

The UK still hangs on to tax havens - nothing whatsoever to do with the EU - and money deposited in those tax havens are largely exempt from tax, thus further decreasing money going into the UK Exchequer - which in turn means more cuts on the already poor.

To survive, the UK has to sell arms to Saudi Arabia and now Theresa May wants to sell arms to President Erdogan in Turkey, who will doubtless use them against the Kurds, who valiantly supported the UK against Daesh. Theresa May now has to - of yet another unsavoury character, namely the new neo-con POTUS, in order to try to sell whatever to the US. Our position as a trading nation will be made worse, not better, as a result of leaving the EU. Of course, we look to countries outside the EU to make trade deals with but, as an example, India says that a UK free trade deal will take years. India's finance minister has said that a free trade deal with Britain will take a "long time" and that no negotiations will start until the Brexit process has been completed.
On a visit to the UK today to meet the chancellor and the foreign secretary to discuss trade, Arun Jaitley, Minister of Finance of India, said there was "great enthusiasm" for a deal.
But he made it clear that any talks would have to run "in parallel" with current Indian negotiations with the European Union (EU). The EU and India launched free trade talks in 2007 but progress has been slow.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39103078

Staying within the EU also means that around 27 countries are all trying to look collectively after each other to a great extent - leaving the EU means the UK pursues national interest only - how can this be better? When awarding the Nobel Peace Prize to the EU, the Norwegian Nobel Committee said its decision was based on the stabilising role the EU has played in transforming most of Europe from a continent of war to a continent of peace. The EU’s most important achievement, according to the committee, has been "the successful struggle for peace and reconciliation and for democracy and human rights". The work of the EU represents "fraternity between nations" and amounts to a form of the "peace congresses" cited by Alfred Nobel as criteria for the Peace Prize in his 1895 will.
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/history/2010-today/2012/eu-nob...

The EU Referendum was advisory and the vote was not large enough to justify going ahead. It is more patriotic to do what is best for the country - in particular, what is best for the JAMs (Just About Managing) and those below the JAMs who are not managing at all.

mirek_turski

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Very good summary. Thanks Lee.

JBS55

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Finally some common sense - it's about time that the Brexiters get over their jingoism and back slapping see the situation for what it is.Great summary Lee

gazbag7

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I think you will find it was "Common Sense" that won the vote.

Greg Tingey

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NO
People were gulled by the deliberate lies of the Brexiters

AlisonPrice

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I didn't believe any of the politicians. I made up my own mind.

AlisonPrice

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You can't say that we have a dire shortage of labour and then suggest we'll be damned by the loss of a few jobs. You can't have it both ways. If you don't want the UK to lose any jobs, what do you say to the thousands of young people who have to leave their families and communities because there is no work for them there?

AlisonPrice

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Also, how can you just IGNORE the democratic will of the people???

alex-l

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Great summary and exactly the facts that the Brexiters refuse to acknowledge. It's really alarming to me how they're willing to give away even the most basic decency (see the PM being best friends with notorious human rights violators like Erdogan and Trump) just to see this ridiculous ego trip through. This is in no one's best interests, not even the self-styled British "patriots" who keep telling themselves it's a good thing.

AlisonPrice

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It's not an ego-trip - it is democracy. We cannot go round the world telling everybody else to have free and fair elections unless we are willing to respect the results of our own elections as well.

gazbag7

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Just what I would have expected from the worse Mayor ever. Shame we don't have one that lives in the real world.

johncruddas

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Spot on gazbag

Jan Jan

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In my opinion...the only EU citizens currently living in the UK who should be entitled to stay are those who have a legitimate job and those who are married/living with and/or have a child by a British citizen. Pointless allowing thousands of out of work European citizens to continue to live in the UK....and those who do remain need a visa in ALL cases. Any child/marriage/job should be confirmed prior to issue. In addition, any immigration policy should be for the whole of the UK and not exclude London. London is packed to capacity...Khan should be concentrating his efforts on making London a better, safer place for those who already live in it before he opens his arms to more foreign workers that we apparently "need".

johncruddas

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Totally agree

AlisonPrice

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If jobs go abroad, all those unemployed immigrants will go with them. Then we'll have more housing available - and a seat on the tube.

alex-l

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No. People who came to the UK legally with no reason to expect it would turn back on them like this can't suddenly be turned into illegal migrants just because you don't personally approve of their life choices. That's basic rights and security in life - not something that should be taken away at the whim of every xenophobe on the internet or in Whitehall.

AlisonPrice

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It's only the freedom to move to work, study or train. Government is already deporting every EU immigrant rough-sleeping or leaving prison and we're still in the EU.

alex-l

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OK, so you're already abusing human rights while in the EU. As a law student I'm aware. However you're very wrong to assert that it's illegal to come from one EU country to another without already having a job or a course. Wasn't that what you're lot were so mad about?

AlisonPrice

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Alex, the government IS deporting people from the UK because they have no job. That is already happening. It's not me - it's what the EU told us to do because we had too many people coming over here to sleep rough and claim benefits. Do your research and you will see that this is what is going on. OK you disagree with it. I guess you think that immigration controls breach human rights. Well go to court and argue your case then. I didn't make the rule. The EU made the rule and people at the top of the EU have been on TV telling us not to let people in unless they have a job or are studying.

alex-l

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Citation needed.

This is in a nutshell the EU rule:
Freedom of movement allows citizens of the European Union (EU) to move to, live in, and in certain circumstances access the welfare system of the EU country to which they have moved. Freedom of movement is one of the founding principles of the EU. It has been in operation since the creation of the European Economic Community and is primarily designed to support the economies of EU countries by providing a mobile work force.
https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/what-eu-freedom-movement

So, no, the EU didn't make any "rule" that people who are homeless must be deported. I know leavers love bending reality but this isn't about me disagreeing with you (even though I obviously do). There is no EU rule that you have to have a job or face deportation between different EU countries. You might, however, want to do your research on immigration detention in the UK and how often it violates human rights and international law, including EU law. I don't have to "go to court" for you to be able to access that information.

RJHI

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I think this list is too exclusive. London needs to ensure it can get the best talent from around the world and ensure the best standards worldwide and unfettered acess to service and trade markets globally. Ignoring the non "White European" areas of the world is not in Lomdon's interest.

Mediaman

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The sooner we get on with getting OUT the better...

Evilchicken0

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How exactly ?

gazbag7

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Well said Mediaman. Lets make Britain Great again

alex-l

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Alternatively you can always move to Texas and work for Donald Trump, you know.

AlisonPrice

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I couldn't agree more. The sooner we get OUT, the better.

Can't believe how some of these remoaners want to tell the voters and the government what to do, like a bunch of self-appointed autocrats. It's one person one vote. What makes their opinion any more important than mine?

Chivite

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On top of the priorities highlighted by the Mayor, I would add an agreement for the top Universities in London (UCL, KCL, LSE, Imperial) to retain the pool of European talent in research and students. Also an agreement for these Universities that would allow them to take part in European Consortiums for Research (Horizon 2020, for instance).

GHibbs

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In the past few months I have been receiving the EU daily news. It is not clear how much of that is affected by UK input, but clearly we, the UK have contributed hugely and in many ways.
I do hope that we will retain commitment to most of the legislative improvements or exceeding them, especially the environmental ones that are contribute to the slowing of global warming and reducing the destruction of biodiversity.

London's situation will be affected in a major way if we were reduce UK standards on these things.

Louise Pepperall

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NO the decision has been made so accept it. It can not come soon enough as far as I am concerned. The country including London is extremely overcrowded and British people are suffering due to the influx of terrorists, criminals and unskilled illegal immigrants.I want my country back. I want to feel I am in England not Europe. If people move here they should learn to speak English and confirm to British culture but they don't.

johncruddas

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Beat me to it ,well said

AlisonPrice

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Yes, I feel that the importance of culture and community has been destroyed by the ideology of free movement. People who come here ought to feel the need to fit in and get to know their neighbour, but sadly the EU has brought with it a sense of entitlement.

gazbag7

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Hear Hear

Greg Tingey

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Why don't you move to the USA & vote for Donaldo Trumpolini?

AlisonPrice

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Because I don't want to go anywhere and it just so happens that my country is going in the direction I like. Why don't YOU go overseas to a country whose government and electorate you approve of? Clearly you're not happy with ours.

alex-l

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Well, I sure wish my English degree and experience of proofreading for native English speakers protected me from self-centered nationalists who will continue to hate "immigrants" no matter how fluently we speak the language or how well integrated we are.

At least admit it's about your narrow view of what Little England should look like, not about any perceived failings with individual migrants. And clarify which British people think they're suffering so badly from immigrants existing, because the Brits I know all state very clearly that they're suffering because of Brexit and short-sighted nationalism threatening their loved ones. (If you can process the thought that a British person would choose to have a life with an EU citizen, that is.)

AlisonPrice

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Yeah I thought this might come out of you eventually. If you don't like the country you have moved to, you have 27 others to choose from. You have no right to turn up as a newcomer and then start telling our government and our people what to do. Yes it is OUR view of how OUR country should be and if you don't like it then go elsewhere.

alex-l

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Thanks for confirming Brexiters are exactly as nasty as the first impression suggested. This site is a forum for Londoners, including non-UK born Londoners. If you're that passionate about the mayor not including us in considerations for London, feel free to turn up to one of the focus groups and say to people's faces that they "shouldn't" be here! You might find it's a bit harder than internet trolling.

AlisonPrice

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You must be a real pain in the posterior at those focus groups. I can imagine it now. No one else gets to talk or else Alex tells them to leave the country. Alex tells everybody that their English is wrong. Etc. Etc.

alex-l

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Actually, at the one focus group I went to, everyone agreed that Brexit was going to be bad for London (I was one of the few EU nationals there, which wasn't even apparent until later into the discussion). There was no unpleasantness or disrespect - it's really amusing how the fervent Brexiters like you never want to put their face to their beliefs when it counts.

Also, I didn't tell you your English was wrong; I told you it's wrong to assume complete strangers' pronouns through the internet. Especially when you don't even guess them right.

AlisonPrice

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I agree with you, Louise.

Also, people who move here should respect democracy, instead of turning up and telling us what to do.

JohnL

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I agree with the first commenter Greg Tingey.
People seem to sleepwalking into a disaster, and probably will wish they had stayed in the EU when it is too late.
Mrs may tells Scotland to stay with England as we are there nearest and main trading partner, while at the same time she is taking the UK away from its nearest and main trading partner. Daft.
Pity London's Mayor is not PM we might get some sense.

johncruddas

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Are you mad sadiq khan as pm,,if you like living in a democracy accept the vote and move on ,oo much unchecked immigration is destroying our country and ou think khan will stop that

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